1*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 2*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 3*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino>From vn Fri Dec 2 18:05:27 1988 4*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA 5*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoNewsgroups: sci.crypt 6*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 7*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino# Illegitimi noncarborundum 8*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 9*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoPatents are a tar pit. 10*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 11*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoA good case can be made that most are just a license to sue, and nothing 12*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinois illegal until a patent is upheld in court. 13*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 14*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoFor example, if you receive netnews by means other than 'nntp', 15*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinothese very words are being modulated by 'compress', 16*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoa variation on the patented Lempel-Ziv-Welch algorithm. 17*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 18*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoOriginal Ziv-Lempel is patent number 4,464,650, and the more powerful 19*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoLZW method is #4,558,302. Yet despite any similarities between 'compress' 20*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoand LZW (the public-domain 'compress' code was designed and given to the 21*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoworld before the ink on the Welch patent was dry), no attorneys from Sperry 22*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino(the assignee) have asked you to unplug your Usenet connection. 23*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 24*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoWhy? I can't speak for them, but it is possible the claims are too broad, 25*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoor, just as bad, not broad enough. ('compress' does things not mentioned 26*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoin the Welch patent.) Maybe they realize that they can commercialize 27*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoLZW better by selling hardware implementations rather than by licensing 28*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinosoftware. Again, the LZW software delineated in the patent is *not* 29*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinothe same as that of 'compress'. 30*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 31*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoAt any rate, court-tested software patents are a different animal; 32*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinocorporate patents in a portfolio are usually traded like baseball cards 33*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoto shut out small fry rather than actually be defended before 34*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinonon-technical juries. Perhaps RSA will undergo this test successfully, 35*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoalthough the grant to "exclude others from making, using, or selling" 36*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinothe invention would then only apply to the U.S. (witness the 37*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoGenentech patent of the TPA molecule in the U.S. but struck down 38*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoin Great Britain as too broad.) 39*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 40*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoThe concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 41*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinothat one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 42*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoApparently this all changed in Diamond v. Diehr (1981) when the U. S. Supreme 43*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoCourt reversed itself. 44*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 45*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoScholars should consult the excellent article in the Washington and Lee 46*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoLaw Review (fall 1984, vol. 41, no. 4) by Anthony and Colwell for a 47*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinocomprehensive survey of an area which will remain murky for some time. 48*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 49*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoUntil the dust clears, how you approach ideas which are patented depends 50*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoon how paranoid you are of a legal onslaught. Arbitrary? Yes. But 51*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinothe patent bar the the CCPA (Court of Customs and Patent Appeals) 52*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinothanks you for any uncertainty as they, at least, stand to gain 53*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinofrom any trouble. 54*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 55*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 56*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 57*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA (actually 'compress' patents) 58*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 59*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino In article <2042@eos.UUCP> you write: 60*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino >The concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 61*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino >that one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 62*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 63*86d7f5d3SJohn MarinoA rule of thumb that has never been completely valid, as any chemical 64*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoengineer can tell you. (Chemical processes were among the earliest patents, 65*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinoas I recall.) 66*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 67*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino ah yes -- i date myself when relaying out-of-date advice from elderly 68*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino attorneys who don't even specialize in patents. one other interesting 69*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino class of patents include the output of optical lens design programs, 70*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino which yield formulae which can then fairly directly can be molded 71*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino into glass. although there are restrictions on patenting equations, 72*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino the "embedded systems" seem to fly past the legal gauntlets. 73*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 74*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino anyway, i'm still learning about intellectual property law after 75*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino several conversations from a unisys (nee sperry) lawyer re 'compress'. 76*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 77*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino it's more complicated than this, but they're letting (oral 78*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino communication only) software versions of 'compress' slide 79*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino as far as licensing fees go. this includes 'arc', 'stuffit', 80*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino and other commercial wrappers for 'compress'. yet they are 81*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino signing up licensees for hardware chips. hewlett-packard 82*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino supposedly has an active vlsi project, and unisys has 83*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino board-level lzw-based tape controllers. (to build lzw into 84*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino a disk controller would be strange, as you'd have to build 85*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino in a filesystem too!) 86*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 87*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino it's byzantine 88*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino that unisys is in a tiff with hp regarding the patents, 89*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino after discovering some sort of "compress" button on some 90*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino hp terminal product. why? well, professor abraham lempel jumped 91*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino from being department chairman of computer science at technion in 92*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino israel to sperry (where he got the first patent), but then to work 93*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino at hewlett-packard on sabbatical. the second welch patent 94*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino is only weakly derivative of the first, so they want chip 95*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino licenses and hp relented. however, everyone agrees something 96*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino like the current unix implementation is the way to go with 97*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino software, so hp (and ucb) long ago asked spencer thomas and i to sign 98*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino off on copyright permission (although they didn't need to, it being pd). 99*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino lempel, hp, and unisys grumbles they can't make money off the 100*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino software since a good free implementation (not the best -- 101*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino i have more ideas!) escaped via usenet. (lempel's own pascal 102*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino code was apparently horribly slow.) 103*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino i don't follow the ibm 'arc' legal bickering; my impression 104*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino is that the pc folks are making money off the archiver/wrapper 105*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino look/feel of the thing [if ms-dos can be said to have a look and feel]. 106*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 107*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino now where is telebit with the compress firmware? in a limbo 108*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino netherworld, probably, with sperry still welcoming outfits 109*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino to sign patent licenses, a common tactic to bring other small fry 110*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino into the fold. the guy who crammed 12-bit compess into the modem 111*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino there left. also what is transpiring with 'compress' and sys 5 rel 4? 112*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino beats me, but if sperry got a hold of them on these issues, 113*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino at&t would likely re-implement another algorithm if they 114*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino thought 'compress' infringes. needful to say, i don't think 115*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino it does after the abovementioned legal conversation. 116*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino my own beliefs on whether algorithms should be patentable at all 117*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino change with the weather. if the courts finally nail down 118*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino patent protection for algorithms, academic publication in 119*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino textbooks will be somewhat at odds with the engineering world, 120*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino where the textbook codes will simply be a big tease to get 121*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino money into the patent holder coffers... 122*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 123*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino oh, if you implement lzw from the patent, you won't get 124*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino good rates because it doesn't mention adaptive table reset, 125*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino lack thereof being *the* serious deficiency of thomas' first version. 126*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 127*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino now i know that patent law generally protects against independent 128*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino re-invention (like the 'xor' hash function pleasantly mentioned 129*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino in the patent [but not the paper]). 130*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino but the upshot is that if anyone ever wanted to sue us, 131*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino we're partially covered with 132*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino independently-developed twists, plus the fact that some of us work 133*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino in a bureacratic morass (as contractor to a public agency in my case). 134*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 135*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino quite a mess, huh? i've wanted to tell someone this stuff 136*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino for a long time, for posterity if nothing else. 137*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 138*86d7f5d3SJohn Marinojames 139*86d7f5d3SJohn Marino 140